Curse

myerscr · Oct 30, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

It's my observation and opinion that ANet is making the PvE battles and to some extent game play more and more like PvP. There seems to be a pattern of updates and tweaks to the AI that show a consistent move in this direction. These changes are centered around the PvE mobs acting in a more "intelligent" manner in terms of tactics, class distribution and behavior.

In support of this assertion I will list updates that I believe show this evolution. The original AoE/DoT update that caused mobs to scatter when certain skills were used against them (firestorm, etc). The elimination of the AI's mobbing response to a character holding a certain item (book, gear, etc). Monsters being updated to use interrupts and skills in a more competent manner. With the introduction of Factions many more mob groups consisted of a balance of classes. The update associated with Nightfall introduced among other things the behavior of the AI to flee and heal during a fight. There are other examples, but these are the ones that readily came to mind. These changes to the PvE mobs make them act in a manner that more closely reflects an experienced player and/or team of players and combines to make PvE battles look more and more like PvP battles.

Assuming you agree with the assumption that PvE is indeed becoming more like PvP, what are your opinions on the pros and cons of this continued game play evolution? Please contribute your reasons in a manner that isn't inflammatory and respects the opinions of others. I'm starting this thread out of curiosity and as a form of *constructive* feedback to the developers (because they do read these forums and it does help steer the direction of their updates - thank you ANet!). I'll start the ball rolling myself (these are only my opinions/take on the subject - I'm not trying to push these ideas on anyone):

My time is spent roughly 90% PvE and 10% PvP (Ok, if it wasn't obvious before, I've now given you my bias on this subject)

Pros:
- More challenging
- Encourages group strategy and communication
- Encourages adoption of new strategies and skills
- Encourages playing with other known/experienced players to cope with the added challenges (guildies, friends, <maybe henchies/heros!>, etc)
- The overall increased difficulty separates the less skilled/experienced/adaptable players - thus indirectly providing greater comparative reward/success for the elite few (if you are one of these elite few this is a definite plus)

Cons:
- Increased difficulty may prove frustrating/boring/stressful as battles become longer and/or harder to achieve a successful outcome
- The more difficult game play can increase the chance of team conflict and poor behavior. Everyone's happy when things go well and this tends to deteriorate when things don't (especially PUGs).
- While skills may be adapted, the smaller margins of error inherent with the more difficult game play may force a limited range of build/team strategies to achieve success. Just look at the elite areas (UW, FoW, SF, Urgoz, SF, Deep, etc) where build/strategies are often very strict for most groups (PUGs). On the PvP side, look at how many less experienced/skilled people go IWAY/VIMWAY to achieve success.
- The drift of PvE towards PvP will limit the variety of game play experience and appeal to a smaller group of people.

Thoughts:
I think ANet has done an excellent job of trying to be everything for everyone - not an easy task by any means. PvP is provided for the more competitive people who thrive on skill, complex team tactics and game play where the difference between success and failure can ride a very fine line. The challenge to constantly adapt in a fluid environment and succeed against a worthy human opponent. PvE is more for the casual person who may not have the inclination, time or experience needed to enjoy overly challenging/fluid/competitive game play. Someone who likes the smooth experience of a team steamrolling through the mobs while collecting rewarding loot along the way. People who enjoy the journey, buying/selling, the storyline, all the different aspects of the game outside of the heated chaos of battle. And also people who enjoy a challenge more similar to PvP, but in a PvE setting (UW, FoW, etc).

I think the user base and therefore ANet would be best served by continuing with this variety and not forcing game play down any particular path. I think the latest update in particular has shifted PvE more towards PvP. Let the PvPer's have their part of the game and let the PvEer's have a mix of easy and challenging areas. Heck, even let the farmers farm! I PvP and PvE in almost all its forms (arenas, GvG, storyline, title advancement, farming, PUG'ing, etc). I love the flexibility that this game provides and would be saddened if any of this would be limited. I think there are ways to have the pros while limiting the cons. I have faith that ANet will be able to continue the miraculous job of balancing everyone's wishes and maintaining the variety that makes this game great.

Sorry for the long post and thanks to all who took the time to read it. Please share your thoughts and constructive feedback and keep this a respectful discourse.

-Please forgive my grammar as English is my native language and therefore I'm lazy and not as coherent as an educated non-native English speaker

Warmaster Patton · Oct 30, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I think it makes it more challenging, so more fun. I think it should stop right about here though, so it doesn't get too alike to PvP.

crimsonfilms · Oct 30, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

The AI change in my deduction is part of a bigger 'issue' - namely ANet's business model.

The no monthly requires ANet to pump out certain amount of content every 6 months or so to keep the the entire business working (basically keep users buying and servers alive). This basically means chapters that are not quite so large as standalone games with longer development cycle (1 year is considered short now in the gaming industry) and not quite as short as expansion packs (Diablo 2, Broodwar, etc).

How does this lead to AI issues? Well, Anet needs to balance the games 'burn' rate - meaning how fast you go through the content - replayability.

Too slow and people complain about 'grinding'.
Too fast and people comlain about low replay value.

Easy AI leads to content burn. People end up grinding for vanity and uber things.

Hard AI slows down content burn but can frustrate players who enjoy farming.

People already finished the game this weekend. Unless ANet wants to introduce level grind (ala WoW) and other artificial means to slow down content burn, AI modification is needed.

I for one like the new AI very much. It is quite a let down when I am used to Top 100 GvG and then play PvE. It is quite mind numbing (PvE).

FYI - solo/dual farming is not dead. I already know 2-3 places where you can farm.

dreamhunk · Oct 30, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

the people who finshed the a are really hardcore puting in more than 8 hours or skip all the quest.

Their business model works they just need one more team giving them more to make good games. 3 teams plus a team work on improvements

I can't see anyone getting all charactors throught night plus all the other content that is just insane.

Chilly Ress · Oct 30, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Your thoughts are true, PvE has slowly been drifting to PvP ever since the first DoTAoE update came. I mean, cmon, are people in PvP really going to just stand in a firestorm or maelstrom, NO! ANet has always meant for Guild Wars to be mostly PvP oriented. With the new customization update interface implemented in PvP and everything else included, it is more obvious than ever. There is limited high-end PvE content and limited PvE content in general. However, many people will come in here and say if you want PvE go play WoW. However, having played WoW and not having anything against it, I would generally agree. If you want PURE PvE, go do that. As always though, there are many cons to WoW and that is most likely one reason you are here, playing with us, playing Guild Wars. In WoW especially, having played it as I said, much of your time is spent running meaninglessly. You may now say that there are an overabundance of Messenger Boy quests in Guild Wars, and again, you are right. But you won't be spending hours on end running. Atleast you are fighting part of the way. Guild Wars has a decent amount of PvE content, but obviously, since it is centered around PvP, not as much as some other MMO's. However, some of it's great PvE content is camoflauged by the fact that you will never be running and doing nothing. Personally, I never save my money. Simply because, if I do, I get bored and have nothing to do. If I spend my money and constantly have new items to use and have a need for more money. The different storylines draw me back to complete a different character to normally just get money.

Hope it helps,

Chill

Tortoise · Oct 30, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

If you want to state that GW PvE has been slowly drifting toward PvP you might be right but I think you fail to see the point: the changes are pushing the game towards a more rational, tactical experience. When Anet updates AI not to tank meteor showers they're not pushing PvEers towards PvP. They're making PvE more intricate, tactical and challenging. You could say that is pushing PvE towards PvP but that is only the case because PvP is more intricate, tactical and challenging.

If you state that they're pushing PvE towards PvP then you're missing the point of what Anet is doing. Anet's goal is not to make all PvEers play PvP. It's to add new layers to the PvE experience. Just like the additions of Heroes Anet is giving enriching the PvE experience, not limiting it by forcing one path upon the player.

Anet isn't forcing anyone to try PvP. You could state that adding 'alliance battles' and 'challenge missions' are a way to get the PvEer to play PvP and that it's all part of a big conspiracy from Anet and the PvPers to get everyone to play PvP, but that is a bit of a stretch. Alliance battles are added not to force everyone into PvP but to give players more options. AI is updated not to give everyone the idea they're playing PvP (it's quite ridiculous to think the new AI even comes close to any form of PvP...) but to enhance the tactical experience a GW player has.

I know the idea seems unconventional to some pure PvE-ers but really, Anet is changing not to make it more like PvP. They change it to make it a better form of PvE...

Sidra · Oct 30, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

I'm fine with it, but I HAVE experienced some random glitches there the enemy has taken me through 75% of the area just trying to kill it. As long as A-Net remembers that if people wanted SO MUCH PVP, they'd go to an FPS game, and keeps the PvE/PvP content balanced (maybe a BIT more favored towards PvE'ers, as this is an MMO and thats what people TEND to expect and rage-quite about) than I think the game will be a long-lasting addition to the MMO community (although A-Net touts this game as a "COMRPG") for as much time as possible in this huge explosion of game development and upgrades.

Zakarr · Oct 30, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

PvE had no place for skills which hinder target's movement. That rendered a bunch of skills totally useless. The new AI gives these skills a purpose in PvE. I can't really see why it would be a bad thing. Besides AI is not so sensitive for AoE damage than before. Orion's Fire Storm actually made some damage this time.

myerscr · Oct 30, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Good feedback and some food for thought. I agree that GW seems more oriented towards PvP. Whether its a design choice from ANet springing from it's need to set itself apart from other competing products (WoW) or their belief that PvP style PvE has a higher re-playability factor, I don't know. Perhaps there's other contributing reasons.

It wasn't my (conscious) intention to imply that ANet is forcing people from PvE to PvP. I understand what you are saying though and I do appreciate ANet's efforts at making GW a deeper, more intricate and realistic experience in terms of PvE (which may make the PvE battles seem more like PvP battles). I think there are alot of people who like the direction towards PvP style battles and those who don't like it. Is there a better way to balance the needs of both? Is a trend towards more PvE style or PvP style game play better for the greater good of the GW community? Again, I don't know - keep up the constructive feedback.

On a side note, I think one major reason PvP has such an impact on PvE is that ANet has control over fewer variables in PvP when compared to PvE. The one major variable ANet controls in PvP is skills. It also happens that skills are the only significant linkage between PvE and PvP. So when an adjustment needs to be made in PvP ANet has few other choices besides tweaking skills; which has a ripple effect in PvE. On the other hand changes in PvE can be made that often have no impact on PvP (mob AI, loot drop rate, merchant pricing, etc). I think this has something to do with people's impression that ANet caters to PvP at the expense of PvE.

Tortoise · Oct 31, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by myerscr

I think there are alot of people who like the direction towards PvP style battles and those who don't like it. Is there a better way to balance the needs of both? Is a trend towards more PvE style or PvP style game play better for the greater good of the GW community?

I still disagree GW is taking the direction of more PvP style battles. When you look at what has changed it doesn't equate to more PvP style battles at all. Since when did 'PvE style' equal a game in which monsters tank meteor showers indefinitly? Since when did 'PvE style' equal a game in which monsters just let themselves die when they could easily keep the battle going indefinitly by regenning every now and then? I thought PvE mainly differed from PvP by the goals you have and the playstyle. Not in the fact that one is filled with a million brainless bots...

Now, if we look at the first AoE update, can we really say it has made GW a worse game? No, I don't think we can. The first AI-AoE update caused alot of rage but when the dust settled down I think 90% of the players will agree that GW has become a better game because of it.
My guess is that the same thing will be true after this update.

In my opinion the entire idea that 'GW is shifting towards PvP' is only a scapegoat. It's a false idea to give some legitimacy to complains and frustrations. When stuff gets nerfed people tend to lose focus of the bigger picture. Heck, I myself wasn't too happy about the first AoE update either. They lose alot of their fun in a brink of time and don't immediately receive the benefits from the change. When AI changes people lose strategies, builds, tactics and entire ways of 'having fun'. In exchange they do get a better overall game but the benefits from those changes only come in slow and in small quantities at a time. Complaints are only natural.

When players are asked for the reason for all the changes they tend to overlook the most obvious one and just look for scapegoats. The 'PvE is shifting towards PvP' idea is merely that. It is an idea designed to deal with frustrations by putting blame not on the individual player (the one that 'exploited' certain builds, farmgrounds or tactics and thus lessened the value of more intricate tactics) but on a idea.

When I look at all the changes to PvE then I can only notice that if Anet really wanted to push people into PvP they could easily do a much better job then they're doing now. All I see are changes in diversity and challenge level. Does Anet think that PvP style PvE has a higher re-playability factor? No... because if they did so they would make PvE like PvP with fixed teams in which battles are won through a game of tactics, knowledge and skill. Not a 'go and farm 1250 sunspear points by killing a zillion monsters' kind of game with an intriguing storyline, acres of land to explore and lypsynch.

Does Anet however think that a more challenging PvE with multiple layers of tatic has a higher re-playability factor? Yes, I think they do. And can you blame them?

saphir · Oct 31, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

You guys do realize that with the new AI update, that PVE is now 10x easier to steamroll thru than before right? Even in the most abyssmal of PUGs.

If enemies could talk, I could hear the shadow monks screaming now...

"Damn you stupid beserker warriors, attack their monks! Their monks! You f@!#!@ stupid rangers! Interrupt their casters! Stop wasting interrupts on the warrior!"

"WTF?! Why is that mesmer putting backfire on the warrior!?"

Shadow Monk pinging:
I'm targeting Enemy Player Monk!
I'm targeting Enemy Player Monk!
I'm targeting Enemy Player Monk!
Enemy Player Monk is using Healing Seed!
Enemy Player Monk is using Word of Healing!
Enemy Player Elementalist is using Meteor Shower!
Enemy Player Necromancer is using Spiteful Spirit!

My Mob energy is 3 of 50!
My Mob energy is 0 of 50!

Shadow Warrior pings: I'm attacking Enemy Player Warrior!
Shadow Ranger pings: I'm Distracting Shot on Enemy Player Warrior!
Shadow Mesmer pings: I'm using Shatter Hex Enemy on Player Warrior!
Skeletal Berserker pings: I'm using Distracting Chop on Enemy Player Warrior!
Shadow Nightmare pings: I'm using Spiteful Spirit on Enemy Player Warrior!
Shadow Elemental pings: I'm using Fireball on Enemy Player Warrior!
Abyssmal pings: I'm targeting Enemy Player Warrior!

"OMFG you idiots. you just SS'd yourself to death! you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing morons!"

"!@#!@#!#!@$!@@@"

Shadow Monk has left the game.

myerscr · Oct 31, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

LOL Saphir, humorous post; I like it. I've heard widely varying experiences ranging from mobs running forever and being impossible to kill to mobs targetting mindlessly on the tank like he's holding an invisible book/gear. And alot of people with experiences that show an improved AI that makes the game more challenging and realistic. I think the occaisional erratic behavior associated with the AI update is the interaction of the new AI in conjunction with anti-farming code as some of this erratic behavior seems to be mob/location/party size specific.

Tortoise, it seems like we both have our opinions and intelligent reasons to back them up. I'm not saying either of us are right or wrong and I don't think our ideas are too far apart. I think we both want the best for GW but are coming at it from different angles.

I was curious as to peoples take on a particular aspect of the new AI (yes, I have my own opinion but am open to change) and wanted to hear what others have to say. Thank you all for the insight and new ideas that you've provided with your feedback.

saphir · Oct 31, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53

well, i've experienced running monks as well, when farming orr emblems, eg. groups of 2 monks + 2 mesmers, the monks will run if you approach them. not an issue though since i used range attacks and then they kill themselves on SOJ.

but when in supposedly tough places such as FOW/UW the AI behaves as stupidly as my example, well it's no surprise most heal/prot monks that go in there w/ any old PUG thinks something is broken. FOW can now be completely cleared in 90 min or less.. with even the worst players. All you need are monks that can keep the warrior alive, and you could have the most inept casters and damage dealers.. you could still easily finish FOW.

Same w/ UW.. no more worries about losing aggro, because the casters are pretty safe since the hard hitting bladed aatxes just return right back to the warrior to die.

I have no reason to believe it's any different in the Deep/Urgoz.

In NF I've seen the enemy monk running behavior, they're not that hard to kill.. dunno why people end up chasing monks across a zone..
Aggro also seems to be on the highest armor character.. which can be a problem for my lvl 20 monk from Tyria and lower level henchies. But just pick up some cheap low level ascalon armor and problem solved lol.

Rather hilarious that you can protect yourself from attack by wearing lower level armor than everyone else in your party.

WasAGuest · Oct 31, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

I don't see Anet making battles like PvP, I see them improving the AI to finally understand a threat. Something that is and was drastically needed. I brought this issue up many times in the once stickified (is that even a word?) thread on Improving PvE Challenge.

The AI used to flee from a 0 damage Fire Storm. IMO, that was broken AI. It was good that it ran and not stood there, but 0 damage should not make it flee. Now, the AI attempts to know when it is in danger.

Does this make it like PvP? Not at all, it does make it like a "thinking" player though. From a PvE player point of view: If a foe is hitting you for 1 damage are you going to flee or fight through it? Same question, but now your being hit for 100 a swing...?

Now while this is good, more work needs to be done on the AI. First and foremost, "creature" and "human/humanoid" AI should be different. "Creature" AI should be primal and ferocious. Bugs should act like bugs, swarming the players and not fleeing from danger; but instead come in increased numbers that can offset threats from the players. Animals should be made a great deal more powerful. In Nature the strong survive. People are only masters of this world because of the tools we use. If we tried to melee a croc (for example) with our hands... well. lol So Animals need to be made much faster and much stronger.
Human and Humanoid are, IMO, almost perfect in how they should act now. You hit a lightly armored monk, and he/she flees from the damage. Same as I do when on my monk. The fact that once I flee and that same foe is chasing my butt around makes the fights that much more entertaining... In PvP (from what I've played - I really don't like the GW PvP game) a monk starts to kite, the "kited" just switches targets and allows the ranged team mates deal with the "kiter".

So did the update make the PvE more like PvP? Far from it. It made the mobs "think" (as much as they can) and more life like which gives the game world a much better illusion of being real. - huge applause for the update, and hoping for more improvements on other areas.

Quozz · Oct 31, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I am all for Anet trying to make the AI more challenging and having a pseudo PVP feel to it. Challenge is a good thing. However, as Saphir both humourously and accurately pointed out the recent AI update has actually dumbed the AI down to the point of infantile.

This is worse than when the book, gear, keg tricks were around. Now your warrior tank can actually fight instead of standing there holding an item. My monk is now developing bad habits because of this AI update. I have no fear of being interrupted anymore, I no longer kite anything as I know they will just run by me, and I am no longer worried about self defense skills or a self heal like touch. This is not good as its promoting bad tactics and strategy and new players are going to be in a world of hurt if they try to move over to PVP after playing PVE against this AI.

I am hoping this is just a bug that will soon be squashed. The stuff with the enemy kiting more and fleeing to heal up is fine. Just get rid of the single minded tactic of only going after the highest AL characters.

XvArchonvX · Oct 31, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

You guys do realize that with the new AI update, that PVE is now 10x easier to steamroll thru than before right? Even in the most abyssmal of PUGs.

If enemies could talk, I could hear the shadow monks screaming now...

"Damn you stupid beserker warriors, attack their monks! Their monks! You f@!#!@ stupid rangers! Interrupt their casters! Stop wasting interrupts on the warrior!"

"WTF?! Why is that mesmer putting backfire on the warrior!?"

Shadow Monk pinging:
I'm targeting Enemy Player Monk!
I'm targeting Enemy Player Monk!
I'm targeting Enemy Player Monk!
Enemy Player Monk is using Healing Seed!
Enemy Player Monk is using Word of Healing!
Enemy Player Elementalist is using Meteor Shower!
Enemy Player Necromancer is using Spiteful Spirit!

My Mob energy is 3 of 50!
My Mob energy is 0 of 50!

Shadow Warrior pings: I'm attacking Enemy Player Warrior!
Shadow Ranger pings: I'm Distracting Shot on Enemy Player Warrior!
Shadow Mesmer pings: I'm using Shatter Hex Enemy on Player Warrior!
Skeletal Berserker pings: I'm using Distracting Chop on Enemy Player Warrior!
Shadow Nightmare pings: I'm using Spiteful Spirit on Enemy Player Warrior!
Shadow Elemental pings: I'm using Fireball on Enemy Player Warrior!
Abyssmal pings: I'm targeting Enemy Player Warrior!

"OMFG you idiots. you just SS'd yourself to death! you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing morons!"

"!@#!@#!#!@$!@@@"

Shadow Monk has left the game.

ROFL!!!!

Personally I like the way PvE is turning out. For once snare and "while enemy is moving" type skills have a use. I honestly think this is one of the best updates for Eles since Water and Earth magic now have a stronger role to play in PvE than ever before. I don't think PvE really got harder since improved Hench AI and the implement of Heroes now counters much of that very well.

Also, I send my respect to the OP for starting a thread that looks at the new AI's effect on PvE from a clear view taking into account the advantages and disadvantages of such change. It's a nice change from the "OMFG A-net nerfed PvE, enemies run away and I can't catch them, so I'm quitting GW" or "Yes make PvE harder so we clear out the noobs" perspective.

TimTimTimma · Oct 31, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

I personally enjoy this update, I did no pve hardly at all in factions except for when I wanted armour, skills, or weapons. Now, with nightfall, the dynamic introduced by the NPC's enhanced ability to play, plus heros, and the ability to run to towns without having to actually do quests, but having to do quests to get to the story, and complete quests to unlock armourers is just absolutely thrilling. And I for one am enjoying the new dynamics introduced into the game.

BUT, I will add that I do NOT enjoy chasing monk npc's through the entire map. I think that NPC's kiting should be limited because on Saturday I came across a Corsair Doctor that pre-kited me like there was no tomarrow, and unfortunately for me I didn't have a cripple or speed boost available. However, I did eventually corner the bastard after a good 2 minutes of hunting.

boobers · Oct 31, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I think what Tortoise and some others here are misunderstading about myerscr's post is this. More intelligent mobs are more "like" players. They are NOT players. No one says they are, or are even close to actually being players. However, they are more "like" real players. So when you are fighting NPC's that are "like" players, can you see how the gameplay with feel more "like" PvP?

Wether or not Anet is trying to make PvE more like PvP intentionally, I'm not sure. But everytime they make the AI more intelligent, lifelike, or realistic, thats exactly what they are doing. I for one don't care how smart or stupid NPC's are. They are gonna die just the same.

Lastly, I think that myerscr's observation on the lack of control in PvP affecting PvE and those who think this means that Anet loves PvPers more than them, is a wonderful one. This game would not be here if it wasn't for people who PvP. This game would not be here if it wasn't for people who PvE. I don't think that either of these groups would be enough to support this game on their own.

Chewbacca Defense · Oct 31, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

I like the new AI. However, without frustrating users, it could be possible to enable variable AI.

Depending on the total experience of all the user's combined characters, the AI can scale in difficulty. For parties, the total experience of the party can be the scale. This would allow new players to learn without having to face a steep learning curve... although when partying, it maybe a bit difficult.

This will probably take some CPU cycles or they could implement it on the Database side to update the AI level per user per level gain.

It would also resolve some issues with farmers as even if the farmer deleted all their characters, they'd still have to grind through the start of the game just to get back to the high level areas to farm for a short while.

Essentially, the farm would need a very low XP character with high-level skill sets. This would also keep the frustration levels lower.

Theus · Oct 31, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

I demand AI that will run away to form larger groups of monsters if they are losing the battle.

Then I will TRULY look upon PvE as a skillful endeavor.